nlnet_2022_ongoing/discussion.mdwn

   1 # questions 17 aug 2023
   2
   3 * <https://bugs.libre-soc.org/show_bug.cgi?id=961#c5>
   4
   5 ## Discussion from meeting on the 23rd August 2023 21:00 UTC+1
   6
   7 ### Bug #1003
   8
   9 * There is no overlap, as #976 tackled a different issue (and was already complete
  10 before #1003).
  11 * "observe in the child tasks that the entire budget *has* already been allocated to subtasks.... *none of which* overlap (or are a duplicate of) #972"
  12 * Bug #1003 does however build on the work from #972.
  13 * Added to comment 0 of bug #1003 to clarify that it builds on top of #972.
  14
  15 **TODO: just put clear message describing task.  No "Edit: this etc etc"**
  16
  17 * Edit: Please see updated [comment 0](https://bugs.libre-soc.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1003#c0).
  18
  19 ### Bug #999
  20
  21 * Build means that Sadoon provides documentation for setting up a SFFS port
  22 of Gentoo and Debian.
  23 * Stage 3 tar archive file for Gentoo is now available,
  24 see [instructions](https://libre-soc.org/SFFS/gentoo_bootstrap/).
  25 * Debian scripts are still being worked on as of 23rd Aug.
  26 * All files required are hosted either on Libre-SOC's ftp or git.
  27 * Patching qemu has been discovered to be out-of-scope for this task
  28 (far too much work). Sadoon will be creating (or adding sesction to
  29 Gentoo/Debian pages) a wiki page describing the
  30 work he went through with qemu.
  31
  32 **TODO: sadoon, edit the "TODOs" and "DONEs" to include the relevant bugreports.**
  33
  34 **TODO: sadoon, complete the descriptions in comment zeros of each subtask of #999.**
  35
  36 * Edit: Sadoon updated comments 0 for bugs #999, 1130, 1131, 1132.
  37
  38 ### Bugs 1025/1026
  39
  40 * Jacob is still working on figuring out the subtasks which should be focused
  41 on for the scope of the On-Going grant.
  42
  43 **NOT NEEDED at this stage, can be submitted later.  we need to MOVE and get the MoU signed**
  44
  45 Edit: Jacob specified that 1025/1026 subtasks are not going to be part of
  46 the MoU. See
  47 [IRC log](https://libre-soc.org/irclog/%23libre-soc.2023-08-24.log.html#t2023-08-24T17:27:20)
  48
  49 **please REMOVE that.  it is NOT necessary to make such a statement.
  50 it is already known**
  51
  52 ### Bug 1032
  53
  54 * Jacob mentioned there are two major parts
  55
  56 1. Decoder/fetch pipeline
  57 2. Execution unit
  58
  59 Cesar likely do the former, Jacob could do the latter.
  60
  61 **CORRECTION: JACOB to do both.**
  62
  63 ### Bug 1033
  64
  65 * Create the framework for testing (or choose existing)
  66   (jacob: important clarification -- afaict this task is adding new `StateRunner`
  67   and `State` subclasses for FPGA/verilator/etc.
  68   This task is *not* for creating a new framework or choosing an existing framework,
  69   we already have one with implementations for pypowersim, nmigen simulation of the
  70   libre-soc core, and `ExpectedState`. maybe also QEMU through GDB, icr.)
  71 * Add specialisation for pypowersim, microwatt (verilator), FPGA.
  72 * Cavatools out of scope.
  73 * Builds on top of <https://git.libre-soc.org/?p=openpower-isa.git;a=blob;f=src/openpower/test/state.py;hb=c23202498ae30addf04ab4c1e0d7262cc825cd45>?
  74 * Initially pypowersim tested against qemu, then FPGA.
  75 * For Simple-V/SVP64 only pypowersim implementation right now.
  76 SoC HDL has small subset of SVP64.
  77
  78
  79 ### Automated method for removing non-MOU things
  80
  81 * Jacob added a feature to automatically remove non-MOU strings.
  82
  83
  84 # questions 05 oct 2022
  85
  86 context is from other [[nlnet_2022_opf_isa_wg/discussion]] on 2022-08-051.
  87 mailing list <https://lists.libre-soc.org/pipermail/libre-soc-dev/2022-October/005363.html>
  88
  89 **
  90     Again there should be a breakdown of the main tasks, and the associated effort.
  91     And a clarification what rates you used.
  92     (I'm assuming these are the same, but I've learned not to assume...)
  93 **
  94
  95 yes EUR 3,000 / mo as a yardstick works out ok in practice.
  96
  97 tasks, adapted (OpenCAPI is now a secret closed Standard, assigned to a
  98 group backed by Intel!)
  99
 100 * 2-3 months: Dynamic Partitioned SIMD for nmigen
 101 * 5-6 months: Continuation of IEEE754 FP Formal Correctness Proofs, addition
 102   of FP Rounding Modes and Power ISA Flags
 103 * 3-5 months: Completion of an In-Order Single-Issue core implementing SVP64
 104 * 3-4 months: Addition of the IEEE754 FPU to the Core
 105 * 3-4 months: Addition of other ALUs and pipelines
 106 * 4-5 months: Addition of SMP (multi-core) support (lots of research here,
 107   need help from IBM / Microwatt, the SMP Memory Model is conprehensive)
 108 * 3-4 months: Running under Verilator and on FPGAs (big ones)
 109 * 4-5 months: Continued documentation, attendance of Conferences online
 110 * 4-5 months: Begin investigating Multi-Issue Out-of-Order
 111 * 2-3 months plus hosting costs: Establishment and management of CI
 112 * 2? months?: two Bitmain 250 FPGA porting (thanks to UOregon)
 113
 114 lower estimate is around 35 months, upper limit is 46, so a EUR 100,000
 115 budget @ EUR 3,000/mo is within target (just). may need adjusting or some
 116 tasks removing, to fit. we cannot risk committing to tasks at too low a
 117 rate to be able to attract interest and committment.
 118
 119 Again however I do not have a problem with reducing the scope of this one
 120 to only EUR 50,000 to cover some of the less ambitious tasks, with the
 121 necessary infrastructure (Dynamic SIMD, IEEE754 ALUs) being first
 122 priority then a second Grant following up to continue.
 123
 124 **
 125     What would be the concrete (high level) outcome of that project -
 126     where would the grant get us? Would there be a new test chip made
 127     during the lifespan of the project?
 128 **
 129
 130 Answering on the ASIC first: it is a little early to tell.  Coriolis2 needs Timing
 131 based Routing completed in order to tackle lower geometries (even 90nm),
 132 https://libre-soc.org/nlnet_2021_lip6_vlsi/ 2021-08-049.
 133 sky130
 134 is far too small an allocation (12 mm^2 when we need around 100), we
 135 really need sky90 which as i understand is still being negotiated and set up.
 136
 137 Given the amount of time ls180 took (I have to admit it was a major time-sink for me)
 138 as a "learning exercise" the 2019-10-029 project was perfect.
 139 However as far as "value for money" is concerned, a repeat is honestly
 140 less valuable.  That said: when it is ready, RED Semiconductor
 141 *will* be picking up the Libre-SOC core and taking it to Silicon
 142 (28 nm or below).  For this Grant Proposal, powerful FPGAs will
 143 get us a long way.
 144
 145 The concrete outcomes:
 146
 147 * A greatly increased strategic capacity of nmigen HDL: full Object-Orientated
 148   Abstraction of its core Language Features.  Opportunities then open up
 149   to perform strict type checking, length checking, other types of Arithmetic
 150   (Complex numbers, Galois Field) and other "filters" as
 151   3rd party extensions, of which the Dynamic SIMD Partitioning Library created under
 152   2019-02-012 would be the first big showcase.
 153 * A modern well-documented IEEE754 Floating-Point Library, with Formal Correctess
 154   Proofs using modern FOSSHW tools (smt2, symbiyosis) is a big deal in its own right,
 155   and something worth aiming for.
 156   The only
 157   other Libre Formal Proof is Academically developed
 158   for an older version of IEEE754: we will
 159   target 2008 and 2019 semantics.
 160 * An actual "on-the-ground" realisation of Simple-V in a useable Core, whereas at
 161   present it is Simulations only and the cavatools Cycle-accurate Simulator
 162   (2021-08-071) is not quite the same thing (userspace binaries only in cavatools,
 163   no Virtual Memory, for a start).  SMP Support in particular would be strategically
 164   very valuable to have, it greatly expands the commercial viability.
 165 * A lot larger "eat own dogfood" hosting solution, the NGI POINTER Grant paid for
 166   an IBM POWER9 Server which lends us credibility but it needs to be put to
 167   good use!
 168
 169 In other words, mostly "low-level strategic outcomes" on the way to success :)